I have mentioned in the past that, at about the time Ed was announcing his resignation as CGGC CEO, I was in the process of updating my list of the characteristics of the CGGC Brand but that there was so much real life going on for me that I didn't have time to put the list in publishable form.
That list, in reasonably readable and honestly accurate form, true to my thinking at the time, is what follows.
I have polished the prose very slightly over the past few months but have not fiddled with the list's essential content.
I want to put this on record as my understanding of the essence of the CGGC before the new CEO took possession of the corner office. (I wrote all of this when Ed was still CEO.) Even today, not all of these sixteen characteristics still feel current to me, but the jury is still out and time will tell.
FYI, there is one significant change between this list and the previous list: This list includes a sixteenth characteristic, number 5, Creeping High Church-ism.
One other FYI: I sense that the essence of the CGGC is, indeed, changing as the changes in those who sit atop the highest CGGC mountaintop create fruition.
What follows is for the historical record and for understanding of what change is taking place as time moves forward.
------------------------------------
1. Lukewarm-ness. Perpetual, reality-defying self-satisfaction. Akin to the pseudo-Christianity of the Laodiceans. Built on the belief that, spiritually, we are all exactly who and what we should be (Rev. 3:14-18). Read all of the issues of the eNews. Jesus said, "You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked." (Rev. 3:17)
2. Institutional "Churchianity," not Christianity. With increasing fervor, the CGGC focuses on an institutionalized, parish priest-centered view that church is parishes or flocks, led by pastors, with an ecclesiastical elite ruling over all. The CGGC now only pays lip service to what Jesus commands of His disciples. The CGGC today renews churches, makes transformational churches, adopts churches and plants churches yet only goes into the world to make disciples after all the headquarters and local parish work is thoroughly finished, therefore, never.
3. Ecclesiolatry. Ecclesiolatry is the creation and veneration of the church as an idol, as opposed to love of and obedience to Jesus Christ, the Lord of the Church. Idolatry is creating objects of worship and adoration to suit our own passions and prejudices. The CGGC substitutes love for the church for love for the church's Lord. Hence the obsession with planting, adopting, transformationalizing, adopting and renewing local churches while the Church's Lord's talk was about and His prayer and passion was to establish a His Father's Kingdom. The church is the CGGC's Golden Calf.
4. Traditionalism. What the CGGC does is, no longer, rooted in love for, nor obedience to, Bible truth. These days, CGGC practice derives from the way of thinking that led to the rise of the church as an institution in the Middle Ages. The CGGC's founder, John Winebrenner, who saw even the Protestant Reformation as a failure, wouldn't recognize what has become of the movement he began.
5. Creeping High Church-ism. In recent years, there has been a marked increase in the number of CGGC clergy who don clerical collars and who sport large crosses on chains around their necks. At the same time, there has been increasingly open, unashamed, proud and passionate advocacy of the high church's celebration of Lent, Holy Week and Advent from CGGC mountaintops. This has had the effect of elevating the clergy of the CGGC as a hierarchical priesthood and stealing, from all the members of the CGGC body, their role as a universal priesthood. It also focuses the CGGC on the church that is served by credentialed priests, not the Kingdom Jesus brings.
6. Faddism. The CGGC shifts direction according to what is fashionable among other religious denominations. Hence, today, the people with offices in headquarters buildings fret over the CGGC 'brand.' Most recently, with other trend-driven denominations, the CGGC has sought to embrace the 'transformational church' fad and the coaching and leadership development fads. Currently fads such as these, not biblical truth, drive CGGC change.
7. Mellow Relationships over Truth. The CGGC has serious issues with truth primarily because it values, to the extreme, human relationships rooted in tolerance of others but does not value hunger and thirst for righteousness. The CGGC no longer holds, as the most important relationship, love for the Lord, which Jesus called the greatest commandment. The CGGC no longer takes firm stands on any biblical truth, as the recently adopted revision of We Believe and the 2013 Statement of Faith make clear.
8. A Middle Ages Understanding of Christian Community. Perhaps the most harmful achievement of CGGC elites has been the creation of a 'laity.' In its early years, the Church of God had significantly attained the priesthood of all believers. Recently, however, CGGC higher ups have transformed the typical participant in a CGGC congregation into a mere consumer of the religious products and services supplied by the parish clergy and their higher ups.
9. Strong Central Planning Coupled with Lower Level Clergy and Congregational Resistance. It is not enough to suggest that the CGGC is becoming clergy and higher up dominated. (See item 8) Even in the expanding CGGC clergy world, there are extremes in power from the bottom of the clergy pyramid to its peak. Some higher ups in denominational headquarters and in regional offices act from a sense of power that no Roman Catholic Pope would dream of. However, in response, many pastors outside of the good-old-boy leadership network, and most local CGGC congregations, ignore and sometimes defy (always without consequence--unless money going to leadership is involved), the authority of the leaders located in the denomination's central planning offices.
10. Cynicism. As much as CGGC higher ups are shepherds seeking peace, calm and quiet among the pastors and congregations of the CGGC, there is a stifling atmosphere of cynicism among our pastors and congregations toward those in CGGC seats of power. (See item 9.) There is also thinly disguised cynicism flowing from headquarters leadership down into the body. This cynicism flows in every direction: From the top down, from the bottom up and horizontally among factions in the body.
11. To Talk is to Walk-ism. According to the New Testament, a follower of Jesus is one who possesses a faith that organically produces acts of obedience to God's will. (Matthew 7:21-23, 24-26, 25:1-46; John 14:15; 2 Cor. 5:10; Eph. 2:8-10; Jas. 2:12-26; Rev. 2-3). However, CGGC faith is disconnected from action. It is possible to talk CGGC talk without walking it. Hence, for example, the GC Mission, Vision and Faith Statements that are not lived out--and virtually no one notices.
12. Empty Faith. The Old and New Testaments define saving faith as a way of living that is fruit of who a person trusts and what that person thinks. (See Romans 4:18-22, Ephesians 2:8-10, Hebrews 11:4-40, James 2:14-26). (In the Church of God, see John Winebrenner's 27 point description of its faith and practice, first published in 1844.) More than at any time in CGGC history, today faith can be defined by empty theological pronouncements apart from a way of life. (See the 2013 Statement of Faith.)
13. Cheap Grace. The CGGC calls people to easy-beliefism. Jesus said that anyone who doesn't hate his father and mother isn't worthy of Him. There was a time, in its founding generation, that the Church of God called sinners to a radically changed way of life. Dietrich Bonheoffer (who coined the phrase, cheap grace) could have been viewing today's CGGC when he wrote: "...cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ."
14. False, Flock-focused Righteousness. One need only read the first part of the Sermon of the Mount to understand that right living, as radically defined by Jesus, is key to discipleship. In the CGGC, however, righteousness is defined as a local parish, or flock, achieving consistent growth in parish/flock-oriented activities such as 'worship service' attendance not, as Jesus taught, disciples serving each other and caring for the least of the brothers and sisters of Jesus and going to all nations making disciples.
15. Organized Hypocrisy. There is illogic and outright contradiction among the things the CGGC claims to be true about itself. This illogic and contradiction is, in reality, deeply rooted, highly intentional and carefully executed. A hypocrite is an actor: "...a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings." It is a positive and essential value of the CGGC to speak one message and to, without qualm, act out another that is entirely disconnected from that avowed principle.
16. Decline. This is today's bottom line. In the first sixty years or so of its history the Church of God began from scratch and grew to approximately 800 active congregations. From that peak, the CGGC has declined to far less than half that number, losing a total of 60 congregations between 2001 and 2010 alone!
4. Traditionalism. What the CGGC does is, no longer, rooted in love for, nor obedience to, Bible truth. These days, CGGC practice derives from the way of thinking that led to the rise of the church as an institution in the Middle Ages. The CGGC's founder, John Winebrenner, who saw even the Protestant Reformation as a failure, wouldn't recognize what has become of the movement he began.
5. Creeping High Church-ism. In recent years, there has been a marked increase in the number of CGGC clergy who don clerical collars and who sport large crosses on chains around their necks. At the same time, there has been increasingly open, unashamed, proud and passionate advocacy of the high church's celebration of Lent, Holy Week and Advent from CGGC mountaintops. This has had the effect of elevating the clergy of the CGGC as a hierarchical priesthood and stealing, from all the members of the CGGC body, their role as a universal priesthood. It also focuses the CGGC on the church that is served by credentialed priests, not the Kingdom Jesus brings.
6. Faddism. The CGGC shifts direction according to what is fashionable among other religious denominations. Hence, today, the people with offices in headquarters buildings fret over the CGGC 'brand.' Most recently, with other trend-driven denominations, the CGGC has sought to embrace the 'transformational church' fad and the coaching and leadership development fads. Currently fads such as these, not biblical truth, drive CGGC change.
7. Mellow Relationships over Truth. The CGGC has serious issues with truth primarily because it values, to the extreme, human relationships rooted in tolerance of others but does not value hunger and thirst for righteousness. The CGGC no longer holds, as the most important relationship, love for the Lord, which Jesus called the greatest commandment. The CGGC no longer takes firm stands on any biblical truth, as the recently adopted revision of We Believe and the 2013 Statement of Faith make clear.
8. A Middle Ages Understanding of Christian Community. Perhaps the most harmful achievement of CGGC elites has been the creation of a 'laity.' In its early years, the Church of God had significantly attained the priesthood of all believers. Recently, however, CGGC higher ups have transformed the typical participant in a CGGC congregation into a mere consumer of the religious products and services supplied by the parish clergy and their higher ups.
9. Strong Central Planning Coupled with Lower Level Clergy and Congregational Resistance. It is not enough to suggest that the CGGC is becoming clergy and higher up dominated. (See item 8) Even in the expanding CGGC clergy world, there are extremes in power from the bottom of the clergy pyramid to its peak. Some higher ups in denominational headquarters and in regional offices act from a sense of power that no Roman Catholic Pope would dream of. However, in response, many pastors outside of the good-old-boy leadership network, and most local CGGC congregations, ignore and sometimes defy (always without consequence--unless money going to leadership is involved), the authority of the leaders located in the denomination's central planning offices.
10. Cynicism. As much as CGGC higher ups are shepherds seeking peace, calm and quiet among the pastors and congregations of the CGGC, there is a stifling atmosphere of cynicism among our pastors and congregations toward those in CGGC seats of power. (See item 9.) There is also thinly disguised cynicism flowing from headquarters leadership down into the body. This cynicism flows in every direction: From the top down, from the bottom up and horizontally among factions in the body.
11. To Talk is to Walk-ism. According to the New Testament, a follower of Jesus is one who possesses a faith that organically produces acts of obedience to God's will. (Matthew 7:21-23, 24-26, 25:1-46; John 14:15; 2 Cor. 5:10; Eph. 2:8-10; Jas. 2:12-26; Rev. 2-3). However, CGGC faith is disconnected from action. It is possible to talk CGGC talk without walking it. Hence, for example, the GC Mission, Vision and Faith Statements that are not lived out--and virtually no one notices.
12. Empty Faith. The Old and New Testaments define saving faith as a way of living that is fruit of who a person trusts and what that person thinks. (See Romans 4:18-22, Ephesians 2:8-10, Hebrews 11:4-40, James 2:14-26). (In the Church of God, see John Winebrenner's 27 point description of its faith and practice, first published in 1844.) More than at any time in CGGC history, today faith can be defined by empty theological pronouncements apart from a way of life. (See the 2013 Statement of Faith.)
13. Cheap Grace. The CGGC calls people to easy-beliefism. Jesus said that anyone who doesn't hate his father and mother isn't worthy of Him. There was a time, in its founding generation, that the Church of God called sinners to a radically changed way of life. Dietrich Bonheoffer (who coined the phrase, cheap grace) could have been viewing today's CGGC when he wrote: "...cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ."
14. False, Flock-focused Righteousness. One need only read the first part of the Sermon of the Mount to understand that right living, as radically defined by Jesus, is key to discipleship. In the CGGC, however, righteousness is defined as a local parish, or flock, achieving consistent growth in parish/flock-oriented activities such as 'worship service' attendance not, as Jesus taught, disciples serving each other and caring for the least of the brothers and sisters of Jesus and going to all nations making disciples.
15. Organized Hypocrisy. There is illogic and outright contradiction among the things the CGGC claims to be true about itself. This illogic and contradiction is, in reality, deeply rooted, highly intentional and carefully executed. A hypocrite is an actor: "...a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings." It is a positive and essential value of the CGGC to speak one message and to, without qualm, act out another that is entirely disconnected from that avowed principle.
16. Decline. This is today's bottom line. In the first sixty years or so of its history the Church of God began from scratch and grew to approximately 800 active congregations. From that peak, the CGGC has declined to far less than half that number, losing a total of 60 congregations between 2001 and 2010 alone!
One Characteristic of the CGGC Brand I Think will Fade in the Future
ReplyDeleteMy guess is that the first of the sixteen to disappear will be the last of the sixteen to manifest itself, i.e., Creeping High-Churchism.
Often, it is difficult to bring an end to a trend like this. Throughout the history of Christian revivals, it has been a normal thing for new and vital movements, as the Church of God was 180 years ago, to degenerate into staid, formal, High-Church, parish priest dominated institutions. And, much of that has happened in the CGGC in recent generations and, apart from several dramatic acts of repentance, we will probably become more top-heavy and institutional as time goes forward.
However, the high church thing?
I could be wrong about this, but I don't see that as a Lance thing.
In the CGGC, it is the ERC that is highest high church. For about thirty years, the people at the top of that pyramid have seemed to me to be, as I have said before, theologically conservative Lutheran wannabees. And, I think that that trend continues with the latest ERC regime which is higher high church than ever.
Of course, the most recent occupier of the corner office in Findlay was from the east so the trend toward high church stuff out there is understandable.
There is at least one newish person on the current General Conference who is committedly and intentionally high church, but not Lance--as far as I can tell. My guess is that high church, liturgical stuff is not in Lance's heart.
I hope not, anyway.
Very rarely, does revival of Kingdom spirit take place in an increasingly liturgical setting.
HI Bill,
ReplyDeleteI have been reading for some time. Instead of just lurking I thought I would engage a little.
1. Lukewarm-ness. Perpetual, reality-defying self-satisfaction. Akin to the pseudo-Christianity of the Laodiceans. Built on the belief that, spiritually, we are all exactly who and what we should be (Rev. 3:14-18). Read all of the issues of the eNews. Jesus said, "You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked." (Rev. 3:17)
I can’t say that this is true of the CGGC anymore than the rest of American Christianity. We are at least somewhat out of the Church Growth, Megachurch, Prosperity Doctrine nonsense.
2. Institutional "Churchianity," not Christianity. With increasing fervor, the CGGC focuses on an institutionalized, parish priest-centered view that church is parishes or flocks, led by pastors, with an ecclesiastical elite ruling over all. The CGGC now only pays lip service to what Jesus commands of His disciples. The CGGC today renews churches, makes transformational churches, adopts churches and plants churches yet only goes into the world to make disciples after all the headquarters and local parish work is thoroughly finished, therefore, never.
I agree with you that we have become far too Episcopal in our polity. Otherwise I am not so sure
3. Ecclesiolatry. Ecclesiolatry is the creation and veneration of the church as an idol, as opposed to love of and obedience to Jesus Christ, the Lord of the Church. Idolatry is creating objects of worship and adoration to suit our own passions and prejudices. The CGGC substitutes love for the church for love for the church's Lord. Hence the obsession with planting, adopting, transformationalizing, adopting and renewing local churches while the Church's Lord's talk was about and His prayer and passion was to establish a His Father's Kingdom. The church is the CGGC's Golden Calf.
I struggle with this myself. I love the church and I hope that my love for the church is completely rooted in my love for Christ.
4. Traditionalism. What the CGGC does is, no longer, rooted in love for, nor obedience to, Bible truth. These days, CGGC practice derives from the way of thinking that led to the rise of the church as an institution in the Middle Ages. The CGGC's founder, John Winebrenner, who saw even the Protestant Reformation as a failure, wouldn't recognize what has become of the movement he began.
I wish we were more rooted in the Middle Ages. My contention is that we are far more rooted in Dispensationalism and the Pharsaical/Bizzare Doctrine it presents.
5. Creeping High Church-ism. In recent years, there has been a marked increase in the number of CGGC clergy who don clerical collars and who sport large crosses on chains around their necks. At the same time, there has been increasingly open, unashamed, proud and passionate advocacy of the high church's celebration of Lent, Holy Week and Advent from CGGC mountaintops. This has had the effect of elevating the clergy of the CGGC as a hierarchical priesthood and stealing, from all the members of the CGGC body, their role as a universal priesthood. It also focuses the CGGC on the church that is served by credentialed priests, not the Kingdom Jesus brings.
A shirt or chain is a weak point. Once again I would say were are more tied to Schofield than any high church stuff.
6. Faddism. The CGGC shifts direction according to what is fashionable among other religious denominations. Hence, today, the people with offices in headquarters buildings fret over the CGGC 'brand.' Most recently, with other trend-driven denominations, the CGGC has sought to embrace the 'transformational church' fad and the coaching and leadership development fads. Currently fads such as these, not biblical truth, drive CGGC change.
ReplyDeleteDing, ding,ding. This overwhelming true
7. Mellow Relationships over Truth. The CGGC has serious issues with truth primarily because it values, to the extreme, human relationships rooted in tolerance of others but does not value hunger and thirst for righteousness. The CGGC no longer holds, as the most important relationship, love for the Lord, which Jesus called the greatest commandment. The CGGC no longer takes firm stands on any biblical truth, as the recently adopted revision ofWe Believe and the 2013 Statement of Faith make clear.
I guess, but once again isn’t this an American Church failing. Love is preeminent in truth and subjectively. We are hardly unique in this.
8. A Middle Ages Understanding of Christian Community. Perhaps the most harmful achievement of CGGC elites has been the creation of a 'laity.' In its early years, the Church of God had significantly attained the priesthood of all believers. Recently, however, CGGC higher ups have transformed the typical participant in a CGGC congregation into a mere consumer of the religious products and services supplied by the parish clergy and their higher ups.
I hope you are wrong about this one. I don’t see myself in this way and really hold to the hermeneutic that the community interprets Scriptur.e
9. Strong Central Planning Coupled with Lower Level Clergy and Congregational Resistance. It is not enough to suggest that the CGGC is becoming clergy and higher up dominated. (See item 8) Even in the expanding CGGC clergy world, there are extremes in power from the bottom of the clergy pyramid to its peak. Some higher ups in denominational headquarters and in regional offices act from a sense of power that no Roman Catholic Pope would dream of. However, in response, many pastors outside of the good-old-boy leadership network, and most local CGGC congregations, ignore and sometimes defy (always without consequence--unless money going to leadership is involved), the authority of the leaders located in the denomination's central planning offices.
The old-boy network writes a lot of rules that they do not follow. I guess they are writing those rules for everyone else. Bill, I could however see this development as coming from Corporate America more so than some return to the Middle Ages. Many churches feel ignored unless they are a large church. At conference the large church is applauded and commemorated, much like the highest grossing Wal-mart store.
10. Cynicism. As much as CGGC higher ups are shepherds seeking peace, calm and quiet among the pastors and congregations of the CGGC, there is a stifling atmosphere of cynicism among our pastors and congregations toward those in CGGC seats of power. (See item 9.) There is also thinly disguised cynicism flowing from headquarters leadership down into the body. This cynicism flows in every direction: From the top down, from the bottom up and horizontally among factions in the body.
Yes there is, but I think it has improved recently in the ERC.
11. To Talk is to Walk-ism. According to the New Testament, a follower of Jesus is one who possesses a faith that organically produces acts of obedience to God's will. (Matthew 7:21-23, 24-26, 25:1-46; John 14:15; 2 Cor. 5:10; Eph. 2:8-10; Jas. 2:12-26; Rev. 2-3). However, CGGC faith is disconnected from action. It is possible to talk CGGC talk without walking it. Hence, for example, the GC Mission, Vision and Faith Statements that are not lived out--and virtually no one notices.
We often write things we have no intention of following. I wish it were not true, that we would just stop writing.
12. Empty Faith. The Old and New Testaments define saving faith as a way of living that is fruit of who a person trusts and what that person thinks. (See Romans 4:18-22, Ephesians 2:8-10, Hebrews 11:4-40, James 2:14-26). (In the Church of God, see John Winebrenner's 27 point description of its faith and practice, first published in 1844.) More than at any time in CGGC history, today faith can be defined by empty theological pronouncements apart from a way of life. (See the 2013 Statement of Faith.)
ReplyDeleteNo I think it is getting better, but I would argue that the root once again is Dispensationalism coupled with a strong belief in eternal security.
13. Cheap Grace. The CGGC calls people to easy-beliefism. Jesus said that anyone who doesn't hate his father and mother isn't worthy of Him. There was a time, in its founding generation, that the Church of God called sinners to a radically changed way of life. DietrichBonheoffer (who coined the phrase, cheap grace) could have been viewing today's CGGC when he wrote: "...cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ."
I would answer the same as above, but discipline is almost impossible in our culture. For example when in York I wonder why anyone would get PFA (protection from abuse) order. No one respected them. Ever wife beat up by her husband already had a PFA. Then a lawyer explained that PFA’s only work on those who respect the law. Now who would that be? Almost none of the people getting the PFA, unless they were being harassed instead of punished. I think discipline in the church is pretty much the same. The person will ignore the discipline and just heat to the church down the street or stay at home where they are no hypocrites.
14. False, Flock-focused Righteousness. One need only read the first part of the Sermon of the Mount to understand that right living, as radically defined by Jesus, is key to discipleship. In the CGGC, however, righteousness is defined as a local parish, or flock, achieving consistent growth in parish/flock-oriented activities such as 'worship service' attendance not, as Jesus taught, disciples serving each other and caring for the least of the brothers and sisters of Jesus and going to all nations making disciples.
Yes, you are right and I think I have said all I could about this above.
15. Organized Hypocrisy. There is illogic and outright contradiction among the things the CGGC claims to be true about itself. This illogic and contradiction is, in reality, deeply rooted, highly intentional and carefully executed. A hypocrite is an actor: "...a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings." It is a positive and essential value of the CGGC to speak one message and to, without qualm, act out another that is entirely disconnected from that avowed principle.
Probably right. We are also very secret about our choices, which helps one to be a hypocrite. Jesus chose the twelve openly. After Judas was replaced openly by Matthais, the runner-up’s four names were listed. Not much secrecy about that. The CGGC hates this stuff. I was horsewhipped for asking who the runner up to Lance was. I guess you can relate as well.
John,
ReplyDeleteThanks for chiming in.
I'm curious about which John you are. Based on what you have written, I have a strong idea. If you don't want to reveal your last name on the blog, I understand. If Dr. Richardson and his colleagues on the Standing Committee and, apparently, each and every member of the ERC Ad Council have their way, I will be debased and defrocked and disavowed next year at Conference.
This guilt by association thing can be real, if you care about such things.
More later.
John,
ReplyDeleteI'm curious about your conviction that Scofield is so strong an influence in the CGGC and that dispensationalism remains such a force. Those things are not true in the part of the CGGC wilderness from which I cry.
When I describe the CGGC brand, I'm dealing with what comes down from the Findlay mountaintop and, to a lesser extent, from the heights of the Church Center in Harrisburg. If you see dispensationalism operating there, please explain to me how you are picking that up.
What I will say is that it is my suspicion that dispensationalism is a force where you are, though it probably is not so powerful across the entirety of the CGGC. If that is the case, that points to the reality that there is no central truth that guides the CGGC apart from the desire to have mellow relationships. This is announced as a matter of principle, to my chagrin, in the new WE BELIEVE when it tragically states,
From its formation, the Churches of God stressed the importance of unity in essentials, liberty in non-essentials, and charity in all things. The Church seeks to uphold biblical truth while respecting personal freedom.
Clearly, respect for personal freedom truly trumps any assertion of an absolute truth. Thus, Mellow Relationships over Truth."
Yes, you are right about in the office. However many commission members and behind the scenes people are still Schofieldites. I do live in Ryrieland (Shippensburg,from what I understand Illinois is kind of this way as well, but that is old information.
DeleteBe well and thinking of you and your family.