Bill, Let me begin with the first question: I'm confused, wasn't
the conference working with Reggie McNeal sometime ago? We are still paying BIG bucks to him as resource person for
MLI--as far as I know. Did we ever leave him and begin
with Alan Hirsch? Well, I think the seminary is
doing something with Hirsch in their church planting program. BTW, Reggie and
Hirsch deeply admire each other and recommend each other's works, as far as I
know. and now we are on to Transformational Church. Which is significantly a Rainer/Geiger thing. When I was doing
MLI, Reggie expressed revulsion to me personally over their book, Simple
Church, which is hyper old-school.
If this is true, I would think the leaders would take a hard look
at how this affects the body. As an example. we simply don't know exactly what
we are supposed to do. The 13th of my Thirteen
Characteristics of the CGGC brand is:
13. Incoherence.
The truth for which we have abundant evidence is that
there is illogic and outright contradiction among the things we claim to be true
about us and there certainly is lack of consistency between what we say about
ourselves and what we do.
So, bingo, my friend. You have
hit the nail on the head.
Add to this the fact that you want us to repent?
Well, of course, as you've pointed out in the past,
they don't want to repent themselves AND, it is their instinct,
as shepherds, to soothe, in others, what Paul calls the "godly sorrow" that "produces
repentance which leads to salvation." So, if some CGGCers were on the path to
repentance, our leaders would try to stop it from
happening.
Second question: Sometime ago you were strongly
missional "whatever that means"? Now you are strictly prophetic. If you have
taken a journey to find your true calling shouldn't you, too, be more patient
with the body as we are trying to discover your passion for the C.G.G.C. ?
Good question. I am still missional.
What I have problems with is
when, in a shepherd-mafia world, a word becomes central to a fad, that word soon loses
its meaning and, in the end, has no distinct meaning at all. Clearly, that has
happened with the word missional--ESPECIALLY in the CGGC. We are pouring huge
amounts of money into MLI yet now beating the drum for TC, which spits in the
face of a missional theology of the church.
As far as my lack of
patience is concerned, I could write a book. But, I can't see a single patient
call for repentance in the Word. If you can show me one, I will
reconsider.
Sometimes you remind me of Christian Swartz who wrote
the manual on NCD. It was so scholarly guys like me couldn't understand it. Jack
Selcher did a wonderful job on rewriting the information so the ants could
digest it and use it as an aid for ministry.
You just placed a post from a contributor who wants to
dismantle the C.G.G.C. for a year and apparently start over. Whoa! Dismantle the CGGC? You are the last person I would have
expected to equate the inner-most core of Executive Directors and Directors in the
CGGC with the CGGC itself! Wassup with that!?
And, I think you
misunderstand the purpose of that proposal. That person wants to elevate the
individual CGGC congregations--to the point that the theology of the proposal may be
more congregational than presbyterial.
If the contributor wants the leaders to go with out a
paycheck I would suggest we all go without one. Well, because I don't receive a paycheck for what I do at Faith,
I'm, of course, all for that.
Also, understand that I enter
posts and proposals sent to me because I consider them worthwhile, not because
I necessarily endorse them. I have said that this proposal, in my opinion,
reflects New Testament practice far better than TC does. Do you disagree? But, I'm not
recommending adopting it out of whole cloth. Unfortunately I'm
too carnal, so I will quit and get a job working for __ __ __________ where I get
paid for what I do. As I myself have gotten another
job.
You are not at all alone in your thinking. I have two
books, one by Craig Groeschell called "The Christian Atheist" another by David
Platt called "Follow Me" and a article in Touch Stone Magazine which is a
Catholic publication and all say the same thing you are saying.
The article in TouchStone is a scholarly article telling
us how we got here. Without a doubt you are spot on. The problem is, you allow
the body to put all the blame on Ed. He is simply like me and the rest of us.
YOU MUST UNDERSTAND THIS. As long as you preach to Ed, you are letting us, me off
the hook. MY failures can be blamed on Ed because I can say "He never told me?
I don't know anyone personally who puts the blame
only on Ed. Even I don't do that. But, Ed, with his resistance to
repentance and his relentless pursuit of old ways, is the key to CGGC change.
I do think that Wayne Boyer laid
the groundwork for moving toward what McNeal and Hirsch and Platt and Francis
Chan advocate and Ed has undone what Wayne was beginning to empower.
But, is Ed to blame? How
about the whole GC staff and the ERC staff, who lead with very much the same
church-focused theology? How about the GC Ad Council? How about the GC
delegates who voted for We Believe and the new credentials document.
Ed bears blame, no doubt. But, he hasn't put a gun to one person's head--as far as I
know.
What I do think, as I said,
is that Ed's the key to repentance and to turning from old
ways. (We won't repent during his tenure as E.D. unless he repents first.)
Your work is good, your focus is too narrow.
In conclusion
The Church is alive and well! As Steve Brown would say, "You think about
this"? Bill I love you to life,
As you may
know, I read Revelation 2 and 3 regularly. When I see comparisons to today's
church, I don't see "The church is alive and well." (I do know that the Lord of the Church is alive and well.) The Lord repeatedly gives
me these words specifically for the CGGC and, in a more general way, for most of
Western Christianity:
"You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not
need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you
are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. I counsel you
to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and
white clothes to wear, so you can cover your
shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes,
so you can see. Those whom I
love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and
repent." (Rev. 3:17-19)
We must repent.
We must repent.
Continued Dialog:
ReplyDeleteThe other person's words in bold.
-------------------------------
Bill, there is no question, none at all, that we MUST repent. The thing is, there must be a question that we must repent because CGGC leadership across the board is not repenting nor calling for repentance nor leading our people to repentance.
As I read the Word, there always has been a question about repentance. The OT prophets and John the Baptist, Jesus and the apostles all demanded it and the people on the other spiritual side either ignored that demand or killed the people who made that demand on God's behalf. Am I not right?
If the analogy holds, what's in store for CGGC leadership across the board that's not buying into the call for repentance? What's in store for the CGGC people who, trustingly, follow CGGC leadership?
We have no other choice, if we want God's blessing or blessings. I agree. Clearly, though, people at the top of the CGGC pyramid don't. When I/we do this HE will add daily to the church those who are being saved. Well said, my friend, straight from Acts 2:38 and 47 or, as Winebrenner and the CGGC Mission Statement have it, "the New Testament plan."
I know this and want this, however I will have to wait until God does his work in my heart before I can share this vital message in brokenness for my sin and the sins of others. John 6:65. Sounds like the New Testament plan to me.
The only reason the Gay/Lesbian movement has made progress is because they are willing to face persecution for their cause.
And the reason the church is growing in China and Iran, etc. is the same reason. The Church has no other cause than to make disciples. Discipleship is so complex that only God can bring it to pass. Our Lord can only send those who have done the hard work of repentance through Godly sorrow. We are no different than the people of Israel who ask Samuel for a king. That my friend was a lonely moment for Samuel and full rejection of Christ Alone. Oh, if only CGGC leaders believed this!